Speaker 1 00:00
Welcome to a deep dive.
Speaker 2 00:02
Oh, a deep dive,
Speaker 1 00:04
yeah, into civilizing cyberspace.
Speaker 2 00:07
Excellent.
Speaker 1 00:07
Yeah. It's a fascinating look,
Speaker 2 00:09
Fascinating
Speaker 1 00:09
Where history and computer science and the future of society all
intersect.
Speaker 2 00:14
Yeah, you got that right?
Speaker 1 00:15
Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16
We're exploring how some pretty big questions about like trust, security
and just the foundations of the digital world are actually connected to
ancient inventions like the abacus. You know,
Speaker 1 00:28
Yes, and get this, we'll also be looking at how things like beehives,
Speaker 2 00:35
Of all things
Speaker 1 00:35
Can teach us about,
Speaker 2 00:37
Wow,
Speaker 1 00:37
building a better digital world.
Speaker 2 00:39
Yeah, these seemingly simple concepts actually point to a whole
different way of thinking about cybersecurity and the very structure the
Internet as we know it.
Speaker 1 00:48
Okay, so let's unpack this a bit.
Speaker 2 00:50
Unpack it
Speaker 1 00:51
The book starts by talking about the abacus and what it calls the
Babylonian Golden Rule.
Speaker 2 00:57
Okay,
Speaker 1 00:57
Basically, the idea is that the abacus is reliable because its form
matches its function.
Speaker 2 01:04
Yeah, the physical design of the abacus directly reflects the math.
Speaker 1 01:08
Yeah,
Speaker 2 01:08
It's using this simplicity and transparency, it make it easy to
understand and trust,
Speaker 1 01:15
Right
Speaker 2 01:15
Imagine if our computers were that straightforward.
Speaker 1 01:18
It makes you wonder, have we sacrificed some of that clarity and
reliability in our modern computers just to make them more flexible.
Speaker 2 01:27
Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:28
I mean, the abacus was used in ancient marketplaces where trust
2 01:41
Rubbish
Speaker 1 01:42
right,
Speaker 2 01:43
General-purpose computers that disconnect between form and function
creates vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1 01:48
I see what you mean.
Speaker 2 01:49
Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:50
So if the abacus is like a well organized marketplace where everyone
understands the rules, are you saying our computers are more like a
chaotic, bizarre where anything goes?
Speaker 2 02:01
That's a great analogy. The lack of clear boundaries and transparency
and how our computers are designed,
Speaker 1 02:06
right,
Speaker 2 02:07
opens the door for errors, vulnerabilities and even malicious attacks,
Speaker 1 02:12
right?
Speaker 2 02:12
That's what we're seeing today.
Speaker 1 02:13
The book then jumps ahead a few centuries,
Speaker 2 02:17
Okay,
Speaker 1 02:17
To introduce Charles Babbage.
Speaker 2 02:19
Charles Babbage,
Speaker 1 02:20
Who designed the Analytical Engine,
Speaker 2 02:22
Yeah,
Speaker 1 02:22
Basically a mechanical computer from the 1800s
Speaker 2 02:25
Okay.
Speaker 1 02:25
Now why should we care about this guy?
Speaker 2 02:28
Babbage was obsessed with what he called infallible automation, machines
that could do calculations perfectly without any human error,
Speaker 1 02:36
Right
Speaker 2 02:37
That quest for reliability is surprisingly relevant to the issues we
face in cybersecurity today.
Speaker 1 02:43
And speaking of pioneers,
Speaker 2 02:45
yes,
Speaker 1 02:45
we can't forget Ada Lovelace. She wrote programs for Babbage's engine,
Speaker 2 02:51
Wow,
Speaker 1 02:51
and basically foreshadowed a lot of modern programming concepts.
Speaker 2 02:55
Yeah,
Speaker 1 02:55
imagine being that far ahead of your time.
Speaker 2 02:57
Absolutely and her work underscores this timeless desire for reliable
computing babbages vision becomes even more relevant when you think
about how much we rely on complex software systems today, systems that
control things like self driving cars, medical devices, even air traffic
control. You're right. You know,
Speaker 1 03:20
a single software bug in those systems could be disastrous.
Speaker 2 03:23
Oh, disastrous.
Speaker 1 03:24
So the stakes are pretty high,
Speaker 2 03:25
Exactly,
Speaker 1 03:26
yeah,
Speaker 2 03:27
that's what makes this deep dive into Trustworthy Computing so
important,
Speaker 1 03:31
right?
Speaker 2 03:31
What lessons can we learn from the past as we build these ever more
complex systems for the future?
Speaker 1 03:37
Now, the book dives into something called the Church-Turing thesis.
Speaker 2 03:41
Oh, the Church-Turing thesis,
Speaker 1 03:43
Which basically defines the limits of what computers can do,
Speaker 2 03:47
Right
Speaker 1 03:47
And this is where things get really interesting.
Speaker 2 03:50
Yeah, the Church-Turing thesis is a fundamental principle in computer
science, and the book uses it as a framework for thinking about how to
build truly trustworthy computers. What's fascinating here is that the
book points out that General-Purpose purpose computers, the kind we use
every day, actually violate a key aspect of this thesis.
Speaker 1 04:12
How so?
Speaker 2 04:12
They rely on blind trust in software, and that, according to the book,
creates a major vulnerability.
Speaker 1 04:20
Okay, I'm following you.
Speaker 2 04:21
Okay,
Speaker 1 04:21
So if general purpose computers are fundamentally flawed in this way,
Speaker 2 04:25
Right
Speaker 1 04:26
What's the alternative?
Speaker 2 04:27
That's where the idea of capability limited addressing comes in. It's a
different way to design computer hardware that inherently limits what
software can access and do
Speaker 1 04:37
I remember, the book uses a cool analogy to explain this the Ishtar Gate
of Babylon?
Speaker 2 04:42
Ah yes, the Ishtar Gate was this heavily guarded entrance that
controlled access to the city capability. Limited addressing is similar
in that it creates secure boundaries within a computer system, limiting
opportunities for things to go wrong,
Speaker 1 04:58
So fewer chances for malware to spread or data breaches to happen
Speaker 2 05:01
Precisely. Capability limited addressing has the potential to prevent
many of the security issues that plague modern systems.
Speaker 1 05:10
So the book is suggesting that general purpose computers, the ones we
use all the time
Speaker 2 05:14
Right,
Speaker 1 05:15
Are inherently vulnerable because of how they're designed.
Speaker 2 05:18
Yes,
Speaker 1 05:18
with shared memory,
Speaker 2 05:19
yes,
Speaker 1 05:20
that's unchecked privileges
Speaker 2 05:21
A major argument the book puts forward. It uses several real world
examples to illustrate just how serious this flaw is.
Speaker 1 05:30
Yeah,
Speaker 2 05:31
cases of stolen credentials that led to huge data breaches, even the
theft of weaponized malware from the CIA,
Speaker 1 05:39
wow, that's scary stuff
Speaker 2 05:40
it is and it highlights a systemic issue,
Speaker 1 05:43
right
Speaker 2 05:43
The Book proposes a radical solution.
Speaker 1 05:45
What's that?
Speaker 2 05:46
A complete shift in how we design computers,
Speaker 1 05:48
Okay,
Speaker 2 05:49
moving away from this vulnerable model towards something called a media
tight design,
Speaker 1 05:54
media tight
Speaker 2 05:55
Media tight,
Speaker 1 05:56
Intrigued.
Speaker 2 05:56
Imagine this.
Speaker 1 05:57
Okay,
Speaker 2 05:58
Right now
Speaker 1 05:59
Yeah,
Speaker 2 05:59
Our computers are like houses with no walls or doors. Anyone can wander
in and out as they please,
Speaker 1 06:05
Right
Speaker 2 06:06
A media tight design, on the other hand, would be like a house with
secure rooms,
Speaker 1 06:11
okay,
Speaker 2 06:12
Each with its own lock and key,
Speaker 1 06:13
yeah,
Speaker 2 06:14
Only authorized users could access specific areas.
Speaker 1 06:18
Uh huh,
Speaker 2 06:19
that's media tight in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 06:20
That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 06:21
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 06:22
Yeah, it sounds like it would be a lot harder for hackers,
Speaker 2 06:25
Right,
Speaker 1 06:25
To get in and cause damage,
Speaker 2 06:27
yeah.
Speaker 1 06:28
But how do you actually build a computer like that?
Speaker 2 06:31
That's where a fascinating concept,
Speaker 1 06:34
okay,
Speaker 2 06:34
called the calculus meta machine comes in.
Speaker 1 06:37
Okay,
Speaker 2 06:38
I know, I know it sounds complicated, but stick with me, because this is
really at the heart of the book's argument.
Speaker 1 06:44
Okay,
Speaker 2 06:44
Think of the calculus as a kind of mathematical language, a set of rules
that can help us build a safer and more organized type of computer.
Speaker 1 06:54
Yeah,
Speaker 2 06:55
and it's not as out there as it sounds.
Speaker 1 06:56
Okay,
Speaker 2 06:57
Nature actually uses similar principles for organization and security
Speaker 1 07:02
really like how
Speaker 2 07:04
Well think about beehives,
Speaker 1 07:06
okay?
Speaker 2 07:07
They have these built in safeguards and boundaries that protect the hive
from intruders.
Speaker 1 07:13
Okay,
Speaker 2 07:14
The calculus can help us build computers with similar safeguards built
in.
Speaker 1 07:19
So we're talking about computers that are more like natural organisms
with their own immune systems and defenses.
Speaker 2 07:25
Yeah.
Speaker 1 07:26
This is all incredibly fascinating,
Speaker 2 07:28
yeah,
Speaker 1 07:29
but I have to admit, it's a lot to take in.
Speaker 2 07:33
It's a lot.
Speaker 1 07:34
Can we simplify this a bit?
Speaker 2 07:35
Let's simplify I
Speaker 1 07:36
Mean, what does all of this mean?
Speaker 2 07:37
What does it all mean?
Speaker 1 07:38
for the average person
Speaker 2 07:40
Yeah,
Speaker 1 07:40
why should they care?
Speaker 2 07:41
You're right. It is a lot to digest,
Speaker 1 07:44
yeah,
Speaker 2 07:44
But the core message is simple. We need to rethink computer security. We
can't keep putting band aids on a system that's fundamentally flawed.
Speaker 1 07:54
Right
Speaker 2 07:54
We need a new foundation for computing built on transparency, limited
access,
Speaker 1 08:00
yeah,
Speaker 2 08:00
and mathematical certainty.
Speaker 2 08:03
Sounds like the book is calling for a revolution in computer science,
Speaker 2 08:06
in a way, a move away from the chaotic, vulnerable world of general
purpose computing towards a more civilized,
Speaker 1 08:13
yeah,
Speaker 2 08:14
secure and ultimately more trustworthy digital world.
Speaker 1 08:18
And speaking of a more civilized digital world.
Speaker 2 08:21
Yes,
Speaker 1 08:21
The book introduces this concept of namespaces.
Speaker 2 08:25
Okay,
Speaker 1 08:26
can you explain what those are and how they fit into this vision?
Speaker 2 08:28
Think of a namespace as your own personal digital space,
Speaker 1 08:34
okay,
Speaker 2 08:34
A secure environment where you control your data and privacy, not some
big corporation.
Speaker 1 08:40
So it's like my own digital Kingdom where I set the rules and decide who
has access,
Speaker 2 08:44
Right
Speaker 1 08:45
Interesting, that's certainly a different model for data harvesting
practices we see with a lot of tech companies today.
Speaker 2 08:50
Exactly, yeah, it flips the script on who has the power,
Speaker 1 08:53
Right
Speaker 2 08:54
The book argues that empowering individuals in this way is crucial for
creating a more democratic
Speaker 1 09:00
right
Speaker 2 09:01
and equitable digital society.
Speaker 1 09:04
Okay, this is all starting to come together. So namespaces could
actually give people control over
Speaker 2 09:09
them, control
Speaker 1 09:10
their data and privacy. But how would that work in practice?
Speaker 2 09:14
It's helpful to think back to that Ishtar Gate analogy.
Speaker 1 09:17
Okay,
Speaker 2 09:18
Just as the gate controlled access to the city namespaces would control
access to your digital information and resources.
Speaker 1 09:26
So instead of having one giant operating system that everyone uses,
Speaker 2 09:30
Right,
Speaker 1 09:31
each person would have their own namespace
Speaker 2 09:33
precisely.
Speaker 1 09:34
Wow.
Speaker 2 09:34
And you would be in charge of setting the security rules for your
namespace.
Speaker 1 09:38
Okay
Speaker 2 09:38
You decide what software can run within your namespace, what data it can
access,
Speaker 1 09:44
okay?
Speaker 2 09:44
And who else can interact with it,
Speaker 1 09:46
right?
Speaker 2 09:46
You're the gatekeeper.
Speaker 1 09:48
It's a radical shift
Speaker 2 09:49
it is
Speaker 1 09:49
from how things work now
Speaker 2 09:50
it is.
Speaker 1 09:51
It makes me wonder, how would these namespaces be created?
Speaker 2 09:54
Yeah,
Speaker 1 09:55
who would manage them?
Speaker 2 09:56
Well, this is where the calculus meta machine comes into play again.
Speaker 1 10:00
Okay,
Speaker 2 10:00
Remember that mathematical language we talked about the book argues that
we need to build computers with this foundation built in from the start,
Speaker 1 10:07
So the hardware itself would be designed to support namespaces.
Speaker 2 10:10
Exactly the beauty of the calculus is that it provides a mathematically
rigorous way to define and manage these secure, isolated environments,
Speaker 1 10:22
I think I'm starting to get it.
Speaker 2 10:23
Okay, good.
Speaker 1 10:24
So let's say I have my own namespace.
Speaker 2 10:26
You have your own.
Speaker 1 10:27
What could I actually do with it?
Speaker 2 10:28
What could you do?
Speaker 1 10:29
What are the practical benefits?
Speaker 2 10:31
Well, for starters, you would have complete control over your own data.
Speaker 1 10:35
Okay,
Speaker 2 10:35
No more worrying about companies tracking your every move or selling
your information without your consent,
Speaker 1 10:41
right?
Speaker 2 10:42
You decide who has access and for what purpose.
Speaker 1 10:45
That's a huge plus.
Speaker 2 10:46
It was a huge plus, e
Speaker 1 10:48
Especially these days when data privacy feels like a thing of the past,
Speaker 2 10:51
The past.
Speaker 1 10:52
But is there more to it?
Speaker 2 10:53
There's more
Speaker 1 10:54
Than just data privacy.
Speaker 2 10:55
Absolutely
Speaker 1 10:56
Okay.
Speaker 2 10:56
Namespaces could revolutionize how we interact with software. Remember
the blind trust problem? Well, in a world of namespaces, you would only
grant software the specific privileges it needs to function
Speaker 1 11:11
right.
Speaker 2 11:11
No more blanket permissions that leave you wide open to attacks.
Speaker 1 11:15
It's like giving each program a carefully tailored set of keys,
Speaker 2 11:19
yeah,
Speaker 1 11:19
Just enough to unlock the doors it needs to access.
Speaker 2 11:24
That's a great way to put it,
Speaker 1 11:25
yeah,
Speaker 2 11:25
If a piece of software tries to do something it's not authorized to do,
Speaker 1 11:28
Right
Speaker 2 11:29
Bam, it hits a wall. It can't spread throughout your entire system.
Speaker 1 11:33
This all sounds incredible,
Speaker 2 11:35
Incredible.
Speaker 1 11:36
It seems like namespaces could solve so many of the security problems we
face today, but I have to ask,
Speaker 2 11:43
what's that?
Speaker 1 11:43
Is this just a utopian dream?
Speaker 2 11:45
It's a good question,
Speaker 1 11:47
can we actually build a digital world
Speaker 2 11:49
that's a big one
Speaker 1 11:50
that works like this?
Speaker 2 11:51
The book acknowledges it's a radical vision, but argues that it's a
necessary one,
Speaker 1 11:57
right
Speaker 2 11:57
The current trajectory of general purpose computing is simply
unsustainable.
Speaker 1 12:02
Okay
Speaker 2 12:02
If we continue down this path, we're headed for a future of escalating
cyber crime, data breaches,
Speaker 1 12:10
right
Speaker 2 12:10
And loss of individual control.
Speaker 1 12:12
That's a pretty bleak picture.
Speaker 2 12:14
It is,
Speaker 1 12:14
yeah,
Speaker 2 12:14
but it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker 1 12:16
Okay?
Speaker 2 12:16
The book presents the Church-Turing thesis and the Lambda-Calculus as a
roadmap for a more secure and equitable digital future.
Speaker 1 12:25
Okay
Speaker 2 12:26
It's a call to action for all of us,
Speaker 1 12:28
right
Speaker 2 12:29
Computer scientists, policy makers, everyday citizens, to demand better,
to rethink what's possible.
Speaker 1 12:36
It's inspiring, in a way,
Speaker 2 12:38
inspiring. It shows that there are alternatives to the status quo. We
don't have to just accept the way things are.
Speaker 1 12:44
That's a great point. We'll continue our deep dive into civilizing
cyberspace in just a moment.
Speaker 1 12:50
So we've been talking about namespaces as these individual digital
spaces where we could have more control over our data and privacy. It
almost sounds great in theory,
Speaker 2 13:00
right?
Speaker 1 13:00
But what would it actually look like in practice?
Speaker 2 13:03
The Ishtar Gate analogy is helpful here. Like the gate controlled who
entered and left the city of Babylon,
Speaker 1 13:09
yeah,
Speaker 2 13:10
namespaces would control what can access your digital information.
Speaker 1 13:15
So if namespaces are like having our own digital kingdoms, yeah, are you
saying we wouldn't need a single giant operating system anymore.
Speaker 2 13:23
That's the idea,
Speaker 1 13:24
wow.
Speaker 2 13:24
Instead of one centralized system, each person would have their own
namespace,
Speaker 1 13:30
right
Speaker 2 13:31
And they would get to set the rules for it. That's a big departure from
how things work now,
Speaker 1 13:35
It sounds complicated,
Speaker 2 13:37
complicated but elegant.
Speaker 1 13:39
How would all of these individual namespaces,
Speaker 2 13:42
right,
Speaker 1 13:42
be created and managed?
Speaker 2 13:44
That's where the calculus meta machine comes back into the picture. The
book suggests building computers,
Speaker 1 13:51
yeah,
Speaker 2 13:51
with this mathematical foundation integrated into the hardware.
Speaker 1 13:55
So the hardware itself would be designed to support namespaces from the
ground up,
Speaker 2 13:58
exactly,
Speaker 1 13:59
wow.
Speaker 2 14:00
The calculus gives us a way to define and manage these secure, isolated
environments,
Speaker 1 14:07
right
Speaker 2 14:07
Making it possible for namespaces to work.
Speaker 1 14:10
Okay, I'm starting to get the picture,
Speaker 2 14:12
good.
Speaker 1 14:12
Let's say I have my own namespace.
Speaker 2 14:14
You have your own.
Speaker 1 14:15
What kinds of things could I do with it?
Speaker 2 14:17
Well, you'd have complete control over your data.
Speaker 1 14:20
Okay,
Speaker 2 14:20
No more companies tracking your every move online,
Speaker 1 14:23
right
Speaker 2 14:24
or selling your information without your permission.
Speaker 1 14:27
So it's pretty appealing,
Speaker 2 14:28
appealing,
Speaker 1 14:29
especially in a world where it feels like our data is constantly being
collected and used without our knowledge,
Speaker 2 14:34
without our knowledge.
Speaker 1 14:35
Are there other benefits besides data privacy?
Speaker 2 14:38
Think about the blind trust issue,
Speaker 1 14:40
yeah
Speaker 2 14:41
We discussed earlier,
Speaker 1 14:42
right
Speaker 2 14:42
with namespaces, you could grant software only the specific privileges
it needs, rather than giving blanket permissions that leave you
vulnerable.
Speaker 1 14:52
So it's like a system of checks and balances for the software we use
Speaker 2 14:56
Precisely, each piece of software would operate within its own confined
space, unable to affect anything outside of its designated area. It
would drastically reduce the risk of things like malware spreading
across your system.
Speaker 1 15:10
This all sounds amazing, but is it really feasible?
Speaker 2 15:14
Good question.
Speaker 1 15:15
Is a world with namespaces just a utopian dream?
Speaker 2 15:20
Yeah.
Speaker 1 15:21
Or can we actually build something like that?
Speaker 2 15:23
The book acknowledges that it's a bold vision,
Speaker 1 15:25
yeah,
Speaker 2 15:26
but it argues that the current path of general purpose computing is
unsustainable,
Speaker 1 15:32
okay,
Speaker 2 15:32
we need a radical change,
Speaker 1 15:34
right
Speaker 2 15:34
If we want to avoid a future dominated by cyber crime,
Speaker 1 15:38
right?
Speaker 2 15:38
Data breaches,
Speaker 1 15:39
yeah,
Speaker 2 15:39
and a loss of individual control over our digital lives,
Speaker 1 15:43
you're painting a pretty grim picture,
Speaker 2 15:45
grim but realistic,
Speaker 1 15:46
of what could happen if we stay on this course.
Speaker 2 15:48
It's important to acknowledge the potential risks.
Speaker 1 15:51
Yeah,
Speaker 2 15:51
we can work towards a better outcome,
Speaker 1 15:53
right
Speaker 2 15:53
The book offers a roadmap, and it's up to all of us,
Speaker 1 15:56
yeah,
Speaker 2 15:56
to decide if we're gonna follow it,
Speaker 1 15:58
it's encouraging to know that there are alternative paths we can take.
Speaker 2 16:02
There are.
Speaker 1 16:02
What else does the book suggest we do to make this vision of a more
civilized cyberspace a reality?
Speaker 2 16:10
Well, remember the concept of infallible automation that was so
important to Charles Babbage,
Speaker 1 16:15
right
Speaker 2 16:15
The book revisits this idea,
Speaker 1 16:17
okay,
Speaker 2 16:18
and connects it to namespaces,
Speaker 1 16:19
Okay. Remind me how those two concepts are related.
Speaker 2 16:22
The book argues that namespaces combined with the principles of the
calculus,
Speaker 1 16:27
okay,
Speaker 2 16:28
could help us achieve a level of software reliability and security that
was previously unimaginable.
Speaker 1 16:34
So we wouldn't be talking about preventing cyber attacks,
Speaker 2 16:37
Right
Speaker 1 16:37
We'd be talking about software that simply works as intended, without
glitches, errors or security vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2 16:46
Exactly.
Speaker 1 16:47
Imagine a world where self driving cars never malfunction,
Speaker 2 16:51
never
Speaker 1 16:51
medical devices are immune to hacking, immune and our critical
infrastructure is truly secure,
Speaker 2 16:58
truly secure.
Speaker 1 16:59
That does sound like a future worth striving for?
Speaker 2 17:02
Worth striving for.
Speaker 1 17:03
It sounds like a huge undertaking, though it is a huge undertaking.
Where do we even begin?
Speaker 2 17:07
The book suggests a fundamental shift,
Speaker 1 17:10
okay,
Speaker 2 17:10
in how we think about computers. Instead of viewing them as these
monolithic, centralised machines, we need to start thinking in terms of
a network of secure, isolated, independently programmed functions each
one is an abstraction with its own secure environment.
Speaker 1 17:25
So instead of building bigger and more complex operating systems,
Speaker 2 17:28
Right,
Speaker 1 17:29
we should be focusing on developing smaller, more secure namespaces.
Speaker 2 17:34
That's the idea,
Speaker 1 17:35
okay
Speaker 2 17:35
These namespaces would be connected in a way that allows for
communication and collaboration,
Speaker 1 17:40
right,
Speaker 2 17:40
but always with security and privacy as top priorities.
Speaker 1 17:44
This reminds me of something else the book talks about,
Speaker 2 17:46
oh, yeah, what's that
Speaker 1 17:47
Beehives Yes, right?
Speaker 2 17:49
The book uses beehives as an analogy,
Speaker 1 17:52
yeah,
Speaker 2 17:53
for a network of namespaces, each bee has its own role to play in the
hive, just like each namespace would have a specific function within a
larger network,
Speaker 1 18:02
yeah.
Speaker 2 18:02
And just as a beehive thrives because of the coordinated efforts of
individual bees,
Speaker 1 18:08
yeah,
Speaker 2 18:08
so too, could a network of namespaces create a robust and resilient
digital ecosystem.
Speaker 1 18:16
That's a great analogy.
Speaker 2 18:17
It is a good one.
Speaker 1 18:18
I love how it draws a parallel between the natural world
Speaker 2 18:21
natural world
Speaker 1 18:22
and this vision of a more civilized cyberspace,
Speaker 2 18:25
right?
Speaker 1 18:26
It's about harnessing the power of nature's design principles,
Speaker 2 18:29
yeah,
Speaker 1 18:29
to create a digital world that is both secure and sustainable.
Speaker 2 18:34
It's about building a cyberspace worthy of the name, a space that
promotes collaboration,
Speaker 1 18:39
right,
Speaker 2 18:40
innovation and human flourishing,
Speaker 1 18:43
civilizing cyberspace paints a compelling picture.
Speaker 2 18:47
It does,
Speaker 1 18:48
of a future where technology empowers individuals,
Speaker 2 18:50
empower us,
Speaker 1 18:51
instead of controlling them,
Speaker 2 18:52
controlling
Speaker 1 18:52
a future where security and reliability built in from the start,
Speaker 2 18:56
from the start.
Speaker 1 18:56
But how do we actually get a question from where we are now,
Speaker 2 18:59
right
Speaker 1 19:00
to this ideal future.
Speaker 2 19:01
It is a journey.
Speaker 1 19:02
It seems like a long road.
Speaker 2 19:03
It is. The book emphasizes that changing our mindset is the first step.
Speaker 1 19:08
Okay,
Speaker 2 19:09
we need to break free from the old ways of thinking about computers and
embrace this new model of networked, secure environments.
Speaker 1 19:17
What about the practical steps?
Speaker 2 19:18
Practical steps?
Speaker 1 19:19
How do we actually start building this new world?
Speaker 2 19:23
The book outlines some concrete measures we can take.
Speaker 1 19:27
Okay,
Speaker 2 19:27
one of the most crucial involves developing what it calls extreme object
capability systems.
Speaker 1 19:33
Extreme object capability systems,
Speaker 2 19:36
extreme.
Speaker 1 19:37
Can you explain what that means? It sounds pretty intense.
Speaker 2 19:39
Think back to the idea of capability limited addressing,
Speaker 1 19:42
okay,
Speaker 2 19:43
remember how it's all about limiting what software can do,
Speaker 1 19:46
right,
Speaker 2 19:46
and what data it can access?
Speaker 1 19:48
Yes, that was a key concept.
Speaker 2 19:49
Well, an extreme object capability system takes that concept to the next
level,
Speaker 1 19:54
okay,
Speaker 2 19:55
it bakes it into the very core of the computer architecture.
Speaker 1 19:58
So it's not just a software fix.
Speaker 2 20:00
It's not just software.
Speaker 1 20:01
It's about redesigning the hardware from the ground up.
Speaker 2 20:04
You got it,
Speaker 1 20:04
wow.
Speaker 2 20:05
And the book argues that the calculus is the perfect mathematical
framework for doing this.
Speaker 1 20:10
Okay,
Speaker 2 20:10
imagine a computer where every piece of data,
Speaker 1 20:14
yeah,
Speaker 2 20:15
every program, is treated as a secure object with clearly defined
capabilities.
Speaker 1 20:21
So instead of the free for all we have now
Speaker 1 20:23
right
Speaker 1 20:23
with shared memory and unchecked privileges, we'd have a network of
secure, self contained entities interacting according to strict rules.
Speaker 2 20:32
Exactly,
Speaker 1 20:33
yeah,
Speaker 2 20:33
the book even points to some real world examples of this approach.
Speaker 1 20:37
Oh really,
Speaker 2 20:37
like the PP 250
Speaker 1 20:39
Okay,
Speaker 2 20:39
a capability based computer system developed back in the 1970s
Speaker 1 20:44
it's amazing that these ideas have been around for so long
Speaker 2 20:46
they have.
Speaker 1 20:47
Why haven't they caught on?
Speaker 2 20:48
That's a great question.
Speaker 1 20:49
Yeah,
Speaker 2 20:50
the book challenges us to revisit these concepts and see their potential
for building a more secure future. It makes a compelling case for why
this is so important,
Speaker 1 21:00
right,
Speaker 2 21:00
not just for security, but for the future of democracy itself.
Speaker 1 21:04
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 21:06
The book argues that the current trajectory of computing, with its
centralized control and unchecked power in the hands of a few large
corporations, is leading us towards a form of digital feudalism,
Speaker 1 21:20
digital feudalism.
Speaker 2 21:21
Digital feudalism.
Speaker 1 21:23
That sounds pretty ominous.
Speaker 2 21:24
It is ominous.
Speaker 1 21:25
What would that look like?
Speaker 2 21:26
Imagine a world where access to information, communication, and even
essential services, is controlled by a handful of powerful corporations.
Speaker 1 21:36
Wow,
Speaker 2 21:36
our digital lives would be at the mercy of unelected tech overlords.
Speaker 1 21:41
That's a bleak vision of the future,
Speaker 2 21:42
bleak, but possible.
Speaker 1 21:45
It makes the idea of building a more civilized cyberspace seem even more
urgent.
Speaker 2 21:50
Absolutely,
Speaker 1 21:50
yeah,
Speaker 2 21:51
but the book does offer a ray of hope.
Speaker 1 21:54
Okay,
Speaker 2 21:54
it argues that by embracing the principles of the calculus and
capability based computing, we can create a more democratic and
equitable digital world,
Speaker 1 22:04
a world where power is distributed,
Speaker 2 22:06
distributed,
Speaker 2 22:07
not concentrated
Speaker 2 22:08
Exactly. It's about giving individuals the tools they need
Speaker 2 22:12
right
Speaker 2 22:13
to control their own digital destinies, and it's about building systems
that are designed to serve humanity,
Speaker 2 22:19
right,
Speaker 2 22:19
not the other way around.
Speaker 2 22:21
This deep dive into civilizing cyberspace has been incredibly thought
provoking.
Speaker 2 22:26
It has been
Speaker 2 22:27
we've covered a lot of ground,
Speaker 2 22:28
a lot of ground,
Speaker 1 22:30
from ancient history to cutting edge,
Speaker 2 22:32
cutting edge
Speaker 1 22:32
computer science concepts.
Speaker 2 22:34
It's a lot
Speaker 1 22:35
it seems like the book offers a really compelling vision.
Speaker 2 22:37
It could be a future. It does. It's a call to action for all of us
Speaker 1 22:41
right
Speaker 2 22:41
to rethink our relationship with technology, to demand better from the
systems that shape our lives,
Speaker 1 22:47
yeah,
Speaker 2 22:48
and to work towards building a digital world
Speaker 1 22:50
right
Speaker 2 22:50
that aligns with our values and aspirations.
Speaker 1 22:53
Civilizing cyberspace is a wake up call.
Speaker 1 22:56
It is a wake up call.
Speaker 1 22:57
It's a roadmap to a better future, a roadmap, and it's up to all of us
to decide.
Speaker 2 23:02
It is up to us
Speaker 1 23:03
if we're going to follow that roadmap.
Speaker 2 23:05
That's right.
Speaker 1 23:06
We'll be back with our final thoughts after a short break.
Speaker 1 23:09
Okay, so we're back and ready to wrap up our deep dive into civilizing
cyberspace.
Speaker 2 23:14
Yes, quite a journey we've been on from the ancient abacus to the
potential for, well, a digital feudalism in the future.
Speaker 1 23:23
Definitely thought provoking. And the book doesn't shy away from
proposing some pretty radical solutions, right,
Speaker 2 23:29
right
Speaker 1 23:30
Like those extreme object capability systems. It feels like a massive
undertaking to actually, you know, redesign computers at such a
fundamental level,
Speaker 2 23:39
it is a huge shift.
Speaker 1 23:41
Yeah, do you really think it's realistic? I mean, can we expect that
kind of change to happen?
2 23:45
Well, it is a bold vision, but the book makes a strong case that it's a
necessary one. The problems with our current computers are just too big
to ignore,
Speaker 1 23:53
right? We talked about security and data and control
Speaker 2 23:55
exactly, vulnerabilities, breaches, losing control of our digital lives.
Speaker 1 24:00
Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 24:01
The stakes are just incredibly high.
Speaker 1 24:03
You're right. If we want a different future, we have to at least
consider these radical solutions
Speaker 2 24:08
absolutely
Speaker 1 24:08
but even if we all agree, you know, where do we even begin? How do we go
from talking about these ideas to actually making them happen?
Speaker 2 24:16
Well, the book really emphasizes that raising awareness is the crucial
first step.
Speaker 1 24:22
Okay? So people need to understand the problems with the current systems
Speaker 2 24:25
Exactly. People need to understand the limitations, the vulnerabilities
of these general purpose computers,
Speaker 1 24:31
right? So it's about educating ourselves and others,
Speaker 2 24:33
yes,
Speaker 1 24:33
and demanding more from those tech companies that build our devices in
our software,
Speaker 2 24:37
absolutely, and maybe even pushing for policy changes, right?
Speaker 1 24:40
Yes, yes, policy changes that put security and privacy first.
Speaker 2 24:44
It sounds like a huge collective effort is needed. It really is. It
takes all of us.
Speaker 1 24:48
This book has given me so much to think about
Speaker 2 24:50
me too.
Speaker 1 24:51
I'm left with this feeling of urgency. You know,
Speaker 2 24:54
I understand that,
Speaker 1 24:55
but also hope.
Speaker 2 24:56
Yes, there's hope.
Speaker 1 24:58
Yeah, because we know the challenge.are real, but we've also learned
about the possibilities for a much better future.
Speaker 2 25:04
Exactly.
Speaker 1 25:05
So as we wrap up, what's one key takeaway you really hope listeners
will, you know, remember from this deep dive?
Speaker 2 25:12
Well, I think the most important thing to remember is this the future of
cyberspace. It's not set in stone. It's something we can shape. You
know, it's up to us
Speaker 1 25:21
through choices we make,
Speaker 2 25:22
yes, through our choices, if we want a digital world that is truly more
secure, more equitable, more human, well, we need to start building it
right now.
Speaker 1 25:33
We can't just wait for it to happen.
Speaker 2 25:34
No, we have to be active
Speaker 1 25:36
Civilizing Cyberspace gives us that roadmap.
Speaker 2 25:38
It does it lays it all out,
Speaker 1 25:39
and it's our responsibility to decide if we're going to follow it.
Speaker 2 25:42
That's a powerful way to put it.
Speaker 1 25:44
It's been such an inspiring conversation.
Speaker 2 25:45
I agree.
Speaker 1 25:46
Thank you so much for joining me for this deep dive into civilizing
cyberspace.
Speaker 2 25:51
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 25:52
I hope it sparked some new ideas for everyone listening and inspired you
to think critically about the digital world we all share.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Welcome to a deep dive.
Speaker 2 00:02
Oh, a deep dive,
Speaker 1 00:04
yeah, into civilizing cyberspace.
Speaker 2 00:07
Excellent.
Speaker 1 00:07
Yeah. It's a fascinating look,
Speaker 2 00:09
Fascinating
Speaker 1 00:09
Where history and computer science and the future of society all
intersect.
Speaker 2 00:14
Yeah, you got that right?
Speaker 1 00:15
Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16
We're exploring how some pretty big questions about like trust, security
and just the foundations of the digital world are actually connected to
ancient inventions like the abacus. You know,
Speaker 1 00:28
Yes, and get this, we'll also be looking at how things like beehives,
Speaker 2 00:35
Of all things
Speaker 1 00:35
Can teach us about,
Speaker 2 00:37
Wow,
Speaker 1 00:37
building a better digital world.
Speaker 2 00:39
Yeah, these seemingly simple concepts actually point to a whole
different way of thinking about cybersecurity and the very structure the
Internet as we know it.
Speaker 1 00:48
Okay, so let's unpack this a bit.
Speaker 2 00:50
Unpack it
Speaker 1 00:51
The book starts by talking about the abacus and what it calls the
Babylonian Golden Rule.
Speaker 2 00:57
Okay,
Speaker 1 00:57
Basically, the idea is that the abacus is reliable because its form
matches its function.
Speaker 2 01:04
Yeah, the physical design of the abacus directly reflects the math.
Speaker 1 01:08
Yeah,
Speaker 2 01:08
It's using this simplicity and transparency, it make it easy to
understand and trust,
Speaker 1 01:15
Right
Speaker 2 01:15
Imagine if our computers were that straightforward.
Speaker 1 01:18
It makes you wonder, have we sacrificed some of that clarity and
reliability in our modern computers just to make them more flexible.
Speaker 2 01:27
Yeah,
Speaker 1 01:28
I mean, the abacus was used in ancient marketplaces where trust
2 01:41
Rubbish
Speaker 1 01:42
right,
Speaker 2 01:43
General-purpose computers that disconnect between form and function
creates vulnerabilities.
Speaker 1 01:48
I see what you mean.
Speaker 2 01:49
Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:50
So if the abacus is like a well organized marketplace where everyone
understands the rules, are you saying our computers are more like a
chaotic, bizarre where anything goes?
Speaker 2 02:01
That's a great analogy. The lack of clear boundaries and transparency
and how our computers are designed,
Speaker 1 02:06
right,
Speaker 2 02:07
opens the door for errors, vulnerabilities and even malicious attacks,
Speaker 1 02:12
right?
Speaker 2 02:12
That's what we're seeing today.
Speaker 1 02:13
The book then jumps ahead a few centuries,
Speaker 2 02:17
Okay,
Speaker 1 02:17
To introduce Charles Babbage.
Speaker 2 02:19
Charles Babbage,
Speaker 1 02:20
Who designed the Analytical Engine,
Speaker 2 02:22
Yeah,
Speaker 1 02:22
Basically a mechanical computer from the 1800s
Speaker 2 02:25
Okay.
Speaker 1 02:25
Now why should we care about this guy?
Speaker 2 02:28
Babbage was obsessed with what he called infallible automation, machines
that could do calculations perfectly without any human error,
Speaker 1 02:36
Right
Speaker 2 02:37
That quest for reliability is surprisingly relevant to the issues we
face in cybersecurity today.
Speaker 1 02:43
And speaking of pioneers,
Speaker 2 02:45
yes,
Speaker 1 02:45
we can't forget Ada Lovelace. She wrote programs for Babbage's engine,
Speaker 2 02:51
Wow,
Speaker 1 02:51
and basically foreshadowed a lot of modern programming concepts.
Speaker 2 02:55
Yeah,
Speaker 1 02:55
imagine being that far ahead of your time.
Speaker 2 02:57
Absolutely and her work underscores this timeless desire for reliable
computing babbages vision becomes even more relevant when you think
about how much we rely on complex software systems today, systems that
control things like self driving cars, medical devices, even air traffic
control. You're right. You know,
Speaker 1 03:20
a single software bug in those systems could be disastrous.
Speaker 2 03:23
Oh, disastrous.
Speaker 1 03:24
So the stakes are pretty high,
Speaker 2 03:25
Exactly,
Speaker 1 03:26
yeah,
Speaker 2 03:27
that's what makes this deep dive into Trustworthy Computing so
important,
Speaker 1 03:31
right?
Speaker 2 03:31
What lessons can we learn from the past as we build these ever more
complex systems for the future?
Speaker 1 03:37
Now, the book dives into something called the Church-Turing thesis.
Speaker 2 03:41
Oh, the Church-Turing thesis,
Speaker 1 03:43
Which basically defines the limits of what computers can do,
Speaker 2 03:47
Right
Speaker 1 03:47
And this is where things get really interesting.
Speaker 2 03:50
Yeah, the Church-Turing thesis is a fundamental principle in computer
science, and the book uses it as a framework for thinking about how to
build truly trustworthy computers. What's fascinating here is that the
book points out that General-Purpose purpose computers, the kind we use
every day, actually violate a key aspect of this thesis.
Speaker 1 04:12
How so?
Speaker 2 04:12
They rely on blind trust in software, and that, according to the book,
creates a major vulnerability.
Speaker 1 04:20
Okay, I'm following you.
Speaker 2 04:21
Okay,
Speaker 1 04:21
So if general purpose computers are fundamentally flawed in this way,
Speaker 2 04:25
Right
Speaker 1 04:26
What's the alternative?
Speaker 2 04:27
That's where the idea of capability limited addressing comes in. It's a
different way to design computer hardware that inherently limits what
software can access and do
Speaker 1 04:37
I remember, the book uses a cool analogy to explain this the Ishtar Gate
of Babylon?
Speaker 2 04:42
Ah yes, the Ishtar Gate was this heavily guarded entrance that
controlled access to the city capability. Limited addressing is similar
in that it creates secure boundaries within a computer system, limiting
opportunities for things to go wrong,
Speaker 1 04:58
So fewer chances for malware to spread or data breaches to happen
Speaker 2 05:01
Precisely. Capability limited addressing has the potential to prevent
many of the security issues that plague modern systems.
Speaker 1 05:10
So the book is suggesting that general purpose computers, the ones we
use all the time
Speaker 2 05:14
Right,
Speaker 1 05:15
Are inherently vulnerable because of how they're designed.
Speaker 2 05:18
Yes,
Speaker 1 05:18
with shared memory,
Speaker 2 05:19
yes,
Speaker 1 05:20
that's unchecked privileges
Speaker 2 05:21
A major argument the book puts forward. It uses several real world
examples to illustrate just how serious this flaw is.
Speaker 1 05:30
Yeah,
Speaker 2 05:31
cases of stolen credentials that led to huge data breaches, even the
theft of weaponized malware from the CIA,
Speaker 1 05:39
wow, that's scary stuff
Speaker 2 05:40
it is and it highlights a systemic issue,
Speaker 1 05:43
right
Speaker 2 05:43
The Book proposes a radical solution.
Speaker 1 05:45
What's that?
Speaker 2 05:46
A complete shift in how we design computers,
Speaker 1 05:48
Okay,
Speaker 2 05:49
moving away from this vulnerable model towards something called a media
tight design,
Speaker 1 05:54
media tight
Speaker 2 05:55
Media tight,
Speaker 1 05:56
Intrigued.
Speaker 2 05:56
Imagine this.
Speaker 1 05:57
Okay,
Speaker 2 05:58
Right now
Speaker 1 05:59
Yeah,
Speaker 2 05:59
Our computers are like houses with no walls or doors. Anyone can wander
in and out as they please,
Speaker 1 06:05
Right
Speaker 2 06:06
A media tight design, on the other hand, would be like a house with
secure rooms,
Speaker 1 06:11
okay,
Speaker 2 06:12
Each with its own lock and key,
Speaker 1 06:13
yeah,
Speaker 2 06:14
Only authorized users could access specific areas.
Speaker 1 06:18
Uh huh,
Speaker 2 06:19
that's media tight in a nutshell.
Speaker 1 06:20
That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 06:21
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 06:22
Yeah, it sounds like it would be a lot harder for hackers,
Speaker 2 06:25
Right,
Speaker 1 06:25
To get in and cause damage,
Speaker 2 06:27
yeah.
Speaker 1 06:28
But how do you actually build a computer like that?
Speaker 2 06:31
That's where a fascinating concept,
Speaker 1 06:34
okay,
Speaker 2 06:34
called the calculus meta machine comes in.
Speaker 1 06:37
Okay,
Speaker 2 06:38
I know, I know it sounds complicated, but stick with me, because this is
really at the heart of the book's argument.
Speaker 1 06:44
Okay,
Speaker 2 06:44
Think of the calculus as a kind of mathematical language, a set of rules
that can help us build a safer and more organized type of computer.
Speaker 1 06:54
Yeah,
Speaker 2 06:55
and it's not as out there as it sounds.
Speaker 1 06:56
Okay,
Speaker 2 06:57
Nature actually uses similar principles for organization and security
Speaker 1 07:02
really like how
Speaker 2 07:04
Well think about beehives,
Speaker 1 07:06
okay?
Speaker 2 07:07
They have these built in safeguards and boundaries that protect the hive
from intruders.
Speaker 1 07:13
Okay,
Speaker 2 07:14
The calculus can help us build computers with similar safeguards built
in.
Speaker 1 07:19
So we're talking about computers that are more like natural organisms
with their own immune systems and defenses.
Speaker 2 07:25
Yeah.
Speaker 1 07:26
This is all incredibly fascinating,
Speaker 2 07:28
yeah,
Speaker 1 07:29
but I have to admit, it's a lot to take in.
Speaker 2 07:33
It's a lot.
Speaker 1 07:34
Can we simplify this a bit?
Speaker 2 07:35
Let's simplify I
Speaker 1 07:36
Mean, what does all of this mean?
Speaker 2 07:37
What does it all mean?
Speaker 1 07:38
for the average person
Speaker 2 07:40
Yeah,
Speaker 1 07:40
why should they care?
Speaker 2 07:41
You're right. It is a lot to digest,
Speaker 1 07:44
yeah,
Speaker 2 07:44
But the core message is simple. We need to rethink computer security. We
can't keep putting band aids on a system that's fundamentally flawed.
Speaker 1 07:54
Right
Speaker 2 07:54
We need a new foundation for computing built on transparency, limited
access,
Speaker 1 08:00
yeah,
Speaker 2 08:00
and mathematical certainty.
Speaker 2 08:03
Sounds like the book is calling for a revolution in computer science,
Speaker 2 08:06
in a way, a move away from the chaotic, vulnerable world of general
purpose computing towards a more civilized,
Speaker 1 08:13
yeah,
Speaker 2 08:14
secure and ultimately more trustworthy digital world.
Speaker 1 08:18
And speaking of a more civilized digital world.
Speaker 2 08:21
Yes,
Speaker 1 08:21
The book introduces this concept of namespaces.
Speaker 2 08:25
Okay,
Speaker 1 08:26
can you explain what those are and how they fit into this vision?
Speaker 2 08:28
Think of a namespace as your own personal digital space,
Speaker 1 08:34
okay,
Speaker 2 08:34
A secure environment where you control your data and privacy, not some
big corporation.
Speaker 1 08:40
So it's like my own digital Kingdom where I set the rules and decide who
has access,
Speaker 2 08:44
Right
Speaker 1 08:45
Interesting, that's certainly a different model for data harvesting
practices we see with a lot of tech companies today.
Speaker 2 08:50
Exactly, yeah, it flips the script on who has the power,
Speaker 1 08:53
Right
Speaker 2 08:54
The book argues that empowering individuals in this way is crucial for
creating a more democratic
Speaker 1 09:00
right
Speaker 2 09:01
and equitable digital society.
Speaker 1 09:04
Okay, this is all starting to come together. So namespaces could
actually give people control over
Speaker 2 09:09
them, control
Speaker 1 09:10
their data and privacy. But how would that work in practice?
Speaker 2 09:14
It's helpful to think back to that Ishtar Gate analogy.
Speaker 1 09:17
Okay,
Speaker 2 09:18
Just as the gate controlled access to the city namespaces would control
access to your digital information and resources.
Speaker 1 09:26
So instead of having one giant operating system that everyone uses,
Speaker 2 09:30
Right,
Speaker 1 09:31
each person would have their own namespace
Speaker 2 09:33
precisely.
Speaker 1 09:34
Wow.
Speaker 2 09:34
And you would be in charge of setting the security rules for your
namespace.
Speaker 1 09:38
Okay
Speaker 2 09:38
You decide what software can run within your namespace, what data it can
access,
Speaker 1 09:44
okay?
Speaker 2 09:44
And who else can interact with it,
Speaker 1 09:46
right?
Speaker 2 09:46
You're the gatekeeper.
Speaker 1 09:48
It's a radical shift
Speaker 2 09:49
it is
Speaker 1 09:49
from how things work now
Speaker 2 09:50
it is.
Speaker 1 09:51
It makes me wonder, how would these namespaces be created?
Speaker 2 09:54
Yeah,
Speaker 1 09:55
who would manage them?
Speaker 2 09:56
Well, this is where the calculus meta machine comes into play again.
Speaker 1 10:00
Okay,
Speaker 2 10:00
Remember that mathematical language we talked about the book argues that
we need to build computers with this foundation built in from the start,
Speaker 1 10:07
So the hardware itself would be designed to support namespaces.
Speaker 2 10:10
Exactly the beauty of the calculus is that it provides a mathematically
rigorous way to define and manage these secure, isolated environments,
Speaker 1 10:22
I think I'm starting to get it.
Speaker 2 10:23
Okay, good.
Speaker 1 10:24
So let's say I have my own namespace.
Speaker 2 10:26
You have your own.
Speaker 1 10:27
What could I actually do with it?
Speaker 2 10:28
What could you do?
Speaker 1 10:29
What are the practical benefits?
Speaker 2 10:31
Well, for starters, you would have complete control over your own data.
Speaker 1 10:35
Okay,
Speaker 2 10:35
No more worrying about companies tracking your every move or selling
your information without your consent,
Speaker 1 10:41
right?
Speaker 2 10:42
You decide who has access and for what purpose.
Speaker 1 10:45
That's a huge plus.
Speaker 2 10:46
It was a huge plus, e
Speaker 1 10:48
Especially these days when data privacy feels like a thing of the past,
Speaker 2 10:51
The past.
Speaker 1 10:52
But is there more to it?
Speaker 2 10:53
There's more
Speaker 1 10:54
Than just data privacy.
Speaker 2 10:55
Absolutely
Speaker 1 10:56
Okay.
Speaker 2 10:56
Namespaces could revolutionize how we interact with software. Remember
the blind trust problem? Well, in a world of namespaces, you would only
grant software the specific privileges it needs to function
Speaker 1 11:11
right.
Speaker 2 11:11
No more blanket permissions that leave you wide open to attacks.
Speaker 1 11:15
It's like giving each program a carefully tailored set of keys,
Speaker 2 11:19
yeah,
Speaker 1 11:19
Just enough to unlock the doors it needs to access.
Speaker 2 11:24
That's a great way to put it,
Speaker 1 11:25
yeah,
Speaker 2 11:25
If a piece of software tries to do something it's not authorized to do,
Speaker 1 11:28
Right
Speaker 2 11:29
Bam, it hits a wall. It can't spread throughout your entire system.
Speaker 1 11:33
This all sounds incredible,
Speaker 2 11:35
Incredible.
Speaker 1 11:36
It seems like namespaces could solve so many of the security problems we
face today, but I have to ask,
Speaker 2 11:43
what's that?
Speaker 1 11:43
Is this just a utopian dream?
Speaker 2 11:45
It's a good question,
Speaker 1 11:47
can we actually build a digital world
Speaker 2 11:49
that's a big one
Speaker 1 11:50
that works like this?
Speaker 2 11:51
The book acknowledges it's a radical vision, but argues that it's a
necessary one,
Speaker 1 11:57
right
Speaker 2 11:57
The current trajectory of general purpose computing is simply
unsustainable.
Speaker 1 12:02
Okay
Speaker 2 12:02
If we continue down this path, we're headed for a future of escalating
cyber crime, data breaches,
Speaker 1 12:10
right
Speaker 2 12:10
And loss of individual control.
Speaker 1 12:12
That's a pretty bleak picture.
Speaker 2 12:14
It is,
Speaker 1 12:14
yeah,
Speaker 2 12:14
but it doesn't have to be that way.
Speaker 1 12:16
Okay?
Speaker 2 12:16
The book presents the Church-Turing thesis and the Lambda-Calculus as a
roadmap for a more secure and equitable digital future.
Speaker 1 12:25
Okay
Speaker 2 12:26
It's a call to action for all of us,
Speaker 1 12:28
right
Speaker 2 12:29
Computer scientists, policy makers, everyday citizens, to demand better,
to rethink what's possible.
Speaker 1 12:36
It's inspiring, in a way,
Speaker 2 12:38
inspiring. It shows that there are alternatives to the status quo. We
don't have to just accept the way things are.
Speaker 1 12:44
That's a great point. We'll continue our deep dive into civilizing
cyberspace in just a moment.
Speaker 1 12:50
So we've been talking about namespaces as these individual digital
spaces where we could have more control over our data and privacy. It
almost sounds great in theory,
Speaker 2 13:00
right?
Speaker 1 13:00
But what would it actually look like in practice?
Speaker 2 13:03
The Ishtar Gate analogy is helpful here. Like the gate controlled who
entered and left the city of Babylon,
Speaker 1 13:09
yeah,
Speaker 2 13:10
namespaces would control what can access your digital information.
Speaker 1 13:15
So if namespaces are like having our own digital kingdoms, yeah, are you
saying we wouldn't need a single giant operating system anymore.
Speaker 2 13:23
That's the idea,
Speaker 1 13:24
wow.
Speaker 2 13:24
Instead of one centralized system, each person would have their own
namespace,
Speaker 1 13:30
right
Speaker 2 13:31
And they would get to set the rules for it. That's a big departure from
how things work now,
Speaker 1 13:35
It sounds complicated,
Speaker 2 13:37
complicated but elegant.
Speaker 1 13:39
How would all of these individual namespaces,
Speaker 2 13:42
right,
Speaker 1 13:42
be created and managed?
Speaker 2 13:44
That's where the calculus meta machine comes back into the picture. The
book suggests building computers,
Speaker 1 13:51
yeah,
Speaker 2 13:51
with this mathematical foundation integrated into the hardware.
Speaker 1 13:55
So the hardware itself would be designed to support namespaces from the
ground up,
Speaker 2 13:58
exactly,
Speaker 1 13:59
wow.
Speaker 2 14:00
The calculus gives us a way to define and manage these secure, isolated
environments,
Speaker 1 14:07
right
Speaker 2 14:07
Making it possible for namespaces to work.
Speaker 1 14:10
Okay, I'm starting to get the picture,
Speaker 2 14:12
good.
Speaker 1 14:12
Let's say I have my own namespace.
Speaker 2 14:14
You have your own.
Speaker 1 14:15
What kinds of things could I do with it?
Speaker 2 14:17
Well, you'd have complete control over your data.
Speaker 1 14:20
Okay,
Speaker 2 14:20
No more companies tracking your every move online,
Speaker 1 14:23
right
Speaker 2 14:24
or selling your information without your permission.
Speaker 1 14:27
So it's pretty appealing,
Speaker 2 14:28
appealing,
Speaker 1 14:29
especially in a world where it feels like our data is constantly being
collected and used without our knowledge,
Speaker 2 14:34
without our knowledge.
Speaker 1 14:35
Are there other benefits besides data privacy?
Speaker 2 14:38
Think about the blind trust issue,
Speaker 1 14:40
yeah
Speaker 2 14:41
We discussed earlier,
Speaker 1 14:42
right
Speaker 2 14:42
with namespaces, you could grant software only the specific privileges
it needs, rather than giving blanket permissions that leave you
vulnerable.
Speaker 1 14:52
So it's like a system of checks and balances for the software we use
Speaker 2 14:56
Precisely, each piece of software would operate within its own confined
space, unable to affect anything outside of its designated area. It
would drastically reduce the risk of things like malware spreading
across your system.
Speaker 1 15:10
This all sounds amazing, but is it really feasible?
Speaker 2 15:14
Good question.
Speaker 1 15:15
Is a world with namespaces just a utopian dream?
Speaker 2 15:20
Yeah.
Speaker 1 15:21
Or can we actually build something like that?
Speaker 2 15:23
The book acknowledges that it's a bold vision,
Speaker 1 15:25
yeah,
Speaker 2 15:26
but it argues that the current path of general purpose computing is
unsustainable,
Speaker 1 15:32
okay,
Speaker 2 15:32
we need a radical change,
Speaker 1 15:34
right
Speaker 2 15:34
If we want to avoid a future dominated by cyber crime,
Speaker 1 15:38
right?
Speaker 2 15:38
Data breaches,
Speaker 1 15:39
yeah,
Speaker 2 15:39
and a loss of individual control over our digital lives,
Speaker 1 15:43
you're painting a pretty grim picture,
Speaker 2 15:45
grim but realistic,
Speaker 1 15:46
of what could happen if we stay on this course.
Speaker 2 15:48
It's important to acknowledge the potential risks.
Speaker 1 15:51
Yeah,
Speaker 2 15:51
we can work towards a better outcome,
Speaker 1 15:53
right
Speaker 2 15:53
The book offers a roadmap, and it's up to all of us,
Speaker 1 15:56
yeah,
Speaker 2 15:56
to decide if we're gonna follow it,
Speaker 1 15:58
it's encouraging to know that there are alternative paths we can take.
Speaker 2 16:02
There are.
Speaker 1 16:02
What else does the book suggest we do to make this vision of a more
civilized cyberspace a reality?
Speaker 2 16:10
Well, remember the concept of infallible automation that was so
important to Charles Babbage,
Speaker 1 16:15
right
Speaker 2 16:15
The book revisits this idea,
Speaker 1 16:17
okay,
Speaker 2 16:18
and connects it to namespaces,
Speaker 1 16:19
Okay. Remind me how those two concepts are related.
Speaker 2 16:22
The book argues that namespaces combined with the principles of the
calculus,
Speaker 1 16:27
okay,
Speaker 2 16:28
could help us achieve a level of software reliability and security that
was previously unimaginable.
Speaker 1 16:34
So we wouldn't be talking about preventing cyber attacks,
Speaker 2 16:37
Right
Speaker 1 16:37
We'd be talking about software that simply works as intended, without
glitches, errors or security vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2 16:46
Exactly.
Speaker 1 16:47
Imagine a world where self driving cars never malfunction,
Speaker 2 16:51
never
Speaker 1 16:51
medical devices are immune to hacking, immune and our critical
infrastructure is truly secure,
Speaker 2 16:58
truly secure.
Speaker 1 16:59
That does sound like a future worth striving for?
Speaker 2 17:02
Worth striving for.
Speaker 1 17:03
It sounds like a huge undertaking, though it is a huge undertaking.
Where do we even begin?
Speaker 2 17:07
The book suggests a fundamental shift,
Speaker 1 17:10
okay,
Speaker 2 17:10
in how we think about computers. Instead of viewing them as these
monolithic, centralised machines, we need to start thinking in terms of
a network of secure, isolated, independently programmed functions each
one is an abstraction with its own secure environment.
Speaker 1 17:25
So instead of building bigger and more complex operating systems,
Speaker 2 17:28
Right,
Speaker 1 17:29
we should be focusing on developing smaller, more secure namespaces.
Speaker 2 17:34
That's the idea,
Speaker 1 17:35
okay
Speaker 2 17:35
These namespaces would be connected in a way that allows for
communication and collaboration,
Speaker 1 17:40
right,
Speaker 2 17:40
but always with security and privacy as top priorities.
Speaker 1 17:44
This reminds me of something else the book talks about,
Speaker 2 17:46
oh, yeah, what's that
Speaker 1 17:47
Beehives Yes, right?
Speaker 2 17:49
The book uses beehives as an analogy,
Speaker 1 17:52
yeah,
Speaker 2 17:53
for a network of namespaces, each bee has its own role to play in the
hive, just like each namespace would have a specific function within a
larger network,
Speaker 1 18:02
yeah.
Speaker 2 18:02
And just as a beehive thrives because of the coordinated efforts of
individual bees,
Speaker 1 18:08
yeah,
Speaker 2 18:08
so too, could a network of namespaces create a robust and resilient
digital ecosystem.
Speaker 1 18:16
That's a great analogy.
Speaker 2 18:17
It is a good one.
Speaker 1 18:18
I love how it draws a parallel between the natural world
Speaker 2 18:21
natural world
Speaker 1 18:22
and this vision of a more civilized cyberspace,
Speaker 2 18:25
right?
Speaker 1 18:26
It's about harnessing the power of nature's design principles,
Speaker 2 18:29
yeah,
Speaker 1 18:29
to create a digital world that is both secure and sustainable.
Speaker 2 18:34
It's about building a cyberspace worthy of the name, a space that
promotes collaboration,
Speaker 1 18:39
right,
Speaker 2 18:40
innovation and human flourishing,
Speaker 1 18:43
civilizing cyberspace paints a compelling picture.
Speaker 2 18:47
It does,
Speaker 1 18:48
of a future where technology empowers individuals,
Speaker 2 18:50
empower us,
Speaker 1 18:51
instead of controlling them,
Speaker 2 18:52
controlling
Speaker 1 18:52
a future where security and reliability built in from the start,
Speaker 2 18:56
from the start.
Speaker 1 18:56
But how do we actually get a question from where we are now,
Speaker 2 18:59
right
Speaker 1 19:00
to this ideal future.
Speaker 2 19:01
It is a journey.
Speaker 1 19:02
It seems like a long road.
Speaker 2 19:03
It is. The book emphasizes that changing our mindset is the first step.
Speaker 1 19:08
Okay,
Speaker 2 19:09
we need to break free from the old ways of thinking about computers and
embrace this new model of networked, secure environments.
Speaker 1 19:17
What about the practical steps?
Speaker 2 19:18
Practical steps?
Speaker 1 19:19
How do we actually start building this new world?
Speaker 2 19:23
The book outlines some concrete measures we can take.
Speaker 1 19:27
Okay,
Speaker 2 19:27
one of the most crucial involves developing what it calls extreme object
capability systems.
Speaker 1 19:33
Extreme object capability systems,
Speaker 2 19:36
extreme.
Speaker 1 19:37
Can you explain what that means? It sounds pretty intense.
Speaker 2 19:39
Think back to the idea of capability limited addressing,
Speaker 1 19:42
okay,
Speaker 2 19:43
remember how it's all about limiting what software can do,
Speaker 1 19:46
right,
Speaker 2 19:46
and what data it can access?
Speaker 1 19:48
Yes, that was a key concept.
Speaker 2 19:49
Well, an extreme object capability system takes that concept to the next
level,
Speaker 1 19:54
okay,
Speaker 2 19:55
it bakes it into the very core of the computer architecture.
Speaker 1 19:58
So it's not just a software fix.
Speaker 2 20:00
It's not just software.
Speaker 1 20:01
It's about redesigning the hardware from the ground up.
Speaker 2 20:04
You got it,
Speaker 1 20:04
wow.
Speaker 2 20:05
And the book argues that the calculus is the perfect mathematical
framework for doing this.
Speaker 1 20:10
Okay,
Speaker 2 20:10
imagine a computer where every piece of data,
Speaker 1 20:14
yeah,
Speaker 2 20:15
every program, is treated as a secure object with clearly defined
capabilities.
Speaker 1 20:21
So instead of the free for all we have now
Speaker 1 20:23
right
Speaker 1 20:23
with shared memory and unchecked privileges, we'd have a network of
secure, self contained entities interacting according to strict rules.
Speaker 2 20:32
Exactly,
Speaker 1 20:33
yeah,
Speaker 2 20:33
the book even points to some real world examples of this approach.
Speaker 1 20:37
Oh really,
Speaker 2 20:37
like the PP 250
Speaker 1 20:39
Okay,
Speaker 2 20:39
a capability based computer system developed back in the 1970s
Speaker 1 20:44
it's amazing that these ideas have been around for so long
Speaker 2 20:46
they have.
Speaker 1 20:47
Why haven't they caught on?
Speaker 2 20:48
That's a great question.
Speaker 1 20:49
Yeah,
Speaker 2 20:50
the book challenges us to revisit these concepts and see their potential
for building a more secure future. It makes a compelling case for why
this is so important,
Speaker 1 21:00
right,
Speaker 2 21:00
not just for security, but for the future of democracy itself.
Speaker 1 21:04
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2 21:06
The book argues that the current trajectory of computing, with its
centralized control and unchecked power in the hands of a few large
corporations, is leading us towards a form of digital feudalism,
Speaker 1 21:20
digital feudalism.
Speaker 2 21:21
Digital feudalism.
Speaker 1 21:23
That sounds pretty ominous.
Speaker 2 21:24
It is ominous.
Speaker 1 21:25
What would that look like?
Speaker 2 21:26
Imagine a world where access to information, communication, and even
essential services, is controlled by a handful of powerful corporations.
Speaker 1 21:36
Wow,
Speaker 2 21:36
our digital lives would be at the mercy of unelected tech overlords.
Speaker 1 21:41
That's a bleak vision of the future,
Speaker 2 21:42
bleak, but possible.
Speaker 1 21:45
It makes the idea of building a more civilized cyberspace seem even more
urgent.
Speaker 2 21:50
Absolutely,
Speaker 1 21:50
yeah,
Speaker 2 21:51
but the book does offer a ray of hope.
Speaker 1 21:54
Okay,
Speaker 2 21:54
it argues that by embracing the principles of the calculus and
capability based computing, we can create a more democratic and
equitable digital world,
Speaker 1 22:04
a world where power is distributed,
Speaker 2 22:06
distributed,
Speaker 2 22:07
not concentrated
Speaker 2 22:08
Exactly. It's about giving individuals the tools they need
Speaker 2 22:12
right
Speaker 2 22:13
to control their own digital destinies, and it's about building systems
that are designed to serve humanity,
Speaker 2 22:19
right,
Speaker 2 22:19
not the other way around.
Speaker 2 22:21
This deep dive into civilizing cyberspace has been incredibly thought
provoking.
Speaker 2 22:26
It has been
Speaker 2 22:27
we've covered a lot of ground,
Speaker 2 22:28
a lot of ground,
Speaker 1 22:30
from ancient history to cutting edge,
Speaker 2 22:32
cutting edge
Speaker 1 22:32
computer science concepts.
Speaker 2 22:34
It's a lot
Speaker 1 22:35
it seems like the book offers a really compelling vision.
Speaker 2 22:37
It could be a future. It does. It's a call to action for all of us
Speaker 1 22:41
right
Speaker 2 22:41
to rethink our relationship with technology, to demand better from the
systems that shape our lives,
Speaker 1 22:47
yeah,
Speaker 2 22:48
and to work towards building a digital world
Speaker 1 22:50
right
Speaker 2 22:50
that aligns with our values and aspirations.
Speaker 1 22:53
Civilizing cyberspace is a wake up call.
Speaker 1 22:56
It is a wake up call.
Speaker 1 22:57
It's a roadmap to a better future, a roadmap, and it's up to all of us
to decide.
Speaker 2 23:02
It is up to us
Speaker 1 23:03
if we're going to follow that roadmap.
Speaker 2 23:05
That's right.
Speaker 1 23:06
We'll be back with our final thoughts after a short break.
Speaker 1 23:09
Okay, so we're back and ready to wrap up our deep dive into civilizing
cyberspace.
Speaker 2 23:14
Yes, quite a journey we've been on from the ancient abacus to the
potential for, well, a digital feudalism in the future.
Speaker 1 23:23
Definitely thought provoking. And the book doesn't shy away from
proposing some pretty radical solutions, right,
Speaker 2 23:29
right
Speaker 1 23:30
Like those extreme object capability systems. It feels like a massive
undertaking to actually, you know, redesign computers at such a
fundamental level,
Speaker 2 23:39
it is a huge shift.
Speaker 1 23:41
Yeah, do you really think it's realistic? I mean, can we expect that
kind of change to happen?
2 23:45
Well, it is a bold vision, but the book makes a strong case that it's a
necessary one. The problems with our current computers are just too big
to ignore,
Speaker 1 23:53
right? We talked about security and data and control
Speaker 2 23:55
exactly, vulnerabilities, breaches, losing control of our digital lives.
Speaker 1 24:00
Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2 24:01
The stakes are just incredibly high.
Speaker 1 24:03
You're right. If we want a different future, we have to at least
consider these radical solutions
Speaker 2 24:08
absolutely
Speaker 1 24:08
but even if we all agree, you know, where do we even begin? How do we go
from talking about these ideas to actually making them happen?
Speaker 2 24:16
Well, the book really emphasizes that raising awareness is the crucial
first step.
Speaker 1 24:22
Okay? So people need to understand the problems with the current systems
Speaker 2 24:25
Exactly. People need to understand the limitations, the vulnerabilities
of these general purpose computers,
Speaker 1 24:31
right? So it's about educating ourselves and others,
Speaker 2 24:33
yes,
Speaker 1 24:33
and demanding more from those tech companies that build our devices in
our software,
Speaker 2 24:37
absolutely, and maybe even pushing for policy changes, right?
Speaker 1 24:40
Yes, yes, policy changes that put security and privacy first.
Speaker 2 24:44
It sounds like a huge collective effort is needed. It really is. It
takes all of us.
Speaker 1 24:48
This book has given me so much to think about
Speaker 2 24:50
me too.
Speaker 1 24:51
I'm left with this feeling of urgency. You know,
Speaker 2 24:54
I understand that,
Speaker 1 24:55
but also hope.
Speaker 2 24:56
Yes, there's hope.
Speaker 1 24:58
Yeah, because we know the challenge.are real, but we've also learned
about the possibilities for a much better future.
Speaker 2 25:04
Exactly.
Speaker 1 25:05
So as we wrap up, what's one key takeaway you really hope listeners
will, you know, remember from this deep dive?
Speaker 2 25:12
Well, I think the most important thing to remember is this the future of
cyberspace. It's not set in stone. It's something we can shape. You
know, it's up to us
Speaker 1 25:21
through choices we make,
Speaker 2 25:22
yes, through our choices, if we want a digital world that is truly more
secure, more equitable, more human, well, we need to start building it
right now.
Speaker 1 25:33
We can't just wait for it to happen.
Speaker 2 25:34
No, we have to be active
Speaker 1 25:36
Civilizing Cyberspace gives us that roadmap.
Speaker 2 25:38
It does it lays it all out,
Speaker 1 25:39
and it's our responsibility to decide if we're going to follow it.
Speaker 2 25:42
That's a powerful way to put it.
Speaker 1 25:44
It's been such an inspiring conversation.
Speaker 2 25:45
I agree.
Speaker 1 25:46
Thank you so much for joining me for this deep dive into civilizing
cyberspace.
Speaker 2 25:51
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1 25:52
I hope it sparked some new ideas for everyone listening and inspired you
to think critically about the digital world we all share.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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